JAMIE FORD

Jamie Ford: I don't just
think of myself as a writer.

I think of myself as someone in
the compassion creation business.

And I, I do think if you create art,
whether that's visual art or music

or literature, film, um, you know,
whatever you create, if it, if it

can give your empathy muscles, uh,
a bit of a workout, I think that's

a good thing, but also if it can.

Be sort of a heartfelt education and you
take that art and you inject that into

a body of society And I do think in a
tiny way you can inoculate that society

Rodney Lee Rogers: Chinese lady, it's
an extraordinary play by Lloyd Suh It's

about the life of Afong Moy and her
far lasting effect on the individual

and collective psyches in this country
Ah Fung Mui was the first Chinese lady

to come to the United States back in
1834 at the age of 14 She was originally

put on display in Pearl's Museum in New
York as a kind of performance piece,

and would later tour the country for
what was advertised as the education

and entertainment of the audience.

Charleston actually was one
of those cities she's toured.

Um, she was one of these amazing
figures in history that went fairly

unnoticed, but in a way has dissolved
literally into the consciousness and

made a very impact into the present day.

Uh, one thing we really like to do
with this program, with Dialogue, is

to deepen your experience with these
themes and history in our plays.

And we do a lot of research
around the process.

Uh, and we'd like to share that with you.

And while digging into the life of Ah
Phuong Mui, I came across an amazing

novel entitled The Many Daughters of
Ah Phuong Mui, written by Jamie Ford.

And today we have the great pleasure
of welcoming Jamie to the program.

Welcome, Jamie.

Hey, thanks for having

Jamie Ford: me.

Rodney Lee Rogers: So I'm watching
your interview on today's show

with Jenna Bush, and I suggest
everybody kind of Google that.

It really is a great, it
really is a great interview.

Um, but you were talking about,
uh, doing research on a project

and the rabbit holes you go down.

And that's exactly how you, I found you.

So I'm digging, I go down these
rabbit holes and I find the novel.

And found out later, I came
pretty late to the party.

I mean, there's some, some
of our patrons had read it.

But just an amazing piece.

It's an incredible book.

Oh, thank you.

And we were also very lucky in
that, uh, Polly Buxton from Buxton

Books was able to get us in touch.

Uh, so we're just really happy
to have you with us here today.

Uh, to start out, do you want to give us
just kind of some context of, of how the

story of Afong Moy fits into the novel?

Jamie Ford: Uh, you know, Afong Moy was
someone that I had known about for a

long time and I wanted to write about
her, but, you know, her ending, the real

figure, her ending is ambiguous to tragic.

And I'd been just dancing around
with this character for a long time

and I, I went down this rabbit hole
about epigenetics, the idea that we

inherit, uh, psychological traits
and I, you know, conceived a novel.

I created a matrilineal line
from Ah Fong Moy into 2045.

So I've given her generations of
descendants and those descendants

kind of echo her trauma in her life.

Rodney Lee Rogers: And how did you like,
I know for, oftentimes it's kind of

like a voice that kind of comes to you.

Like, did it, did it, is it
something you knew of once?

Can you even look back and say, where
did you start learning about her?

Or was there anything in particular
that really spoke to you?

Jamie Ford: You know, the first time
I heard about Afong was in the 90s.

I can't remember what year it was,
but it was a full page feature in the

San Francisco Chronicle celebrating
Asian American History Month.

People, people read those things.

Yeah.

And it, it, uh, it.

I had this timeline from the 1500s
when some Filipino sailors arrived on

the west coast of the United States.

And there was a little mention there,
it said, Ah Fong Moy, the first

Chinese woman to come to America, takes
the stage in New York City in 1834.

And I, I tucked that in the back
of my mind, and occasionally I

would go down these rabbit holes
and try to find out more about her.

You know, I'd splash around in
newspaper archives and things like that.

And I could find all of these
articles written about her.

But in all those articles, we never
hear from her, and I really, I really

wanted to give her a voice, and I, I
really love what Lloyd So has done with

his play, in that he really has, you
know, he's, it's nothing but Ah Fong's

voice on stage and her experiences.

Rodney Lee Rogers: It really is.

It's an amazing piece.

And then in your book, you wove it
into many different kind of timelines.

How does it, how does it, that
one kind of seed kind of make

its way into those other lives?

Jamie Ford: Yeah, you know, I'm known
for writing historical fiction, so

splashing around in the past is um,
you know, that's kind of what I do.

But, I, as I said, I, I, I wanted to
give Ao Fong a beat of redemption.

You know, I wanted to give her, um,
you know, a bit of a happier ending.

Not quite a happier ending, but, you know,
redemptive is, is, is really the word.

And, By giving her these descendants I
could, I could really just have Ah Fong

It's like her genetic material expressed
in different points in time It's really

all these echoes of Ah Fong and so she's
in the 40s It's a character in the 20s

as a character in contemporary times and
then again a character in the future And

along those, you know, when she came here,
she was, you know, she was an oddity.

People paid to see her because of
her otherness of her bound feet.

Um, you know, the, the exotic,
uh, nature of, you know, just

who she was and the people that
handled her, they really monetized.

Her otherness and throughout the book
through these six generations We get

to see how Chinese American women are
treated differently in each generation

Some things are improved and some things
stay the same But hopefully when we get

to the end, it's a positive journey.

Rodney Lee Rogers: I think it was so
brilliantly done a novel, too It's like

it's does what a novel does so well and
that we give this expanse and all these

different stories and in many ways The
play and the novel have that similarity

of moving her into the future Um, and the
play it's, it's, the performers really

kind of have, they're a character in
the audience, this kind of character.

So it kind of moves in.

So kind of her impact is, uh,
is, is really fascinating.

Um, now the, the generational trauma,
like I, it's such a, it's such an

interesting way to kind of look at it.

When we think about story, how do you
equate telling stories and the stories

with it and how that fits in with this
trauma that goes through the generations?

Oh,

Jamie Ford: you know, if you think of,
um, when it comes to interracial inter,

uh, generational trauma, there is often,
you know, there is a story component

and it's, it's the things that our
grandparents tell us of their hardships,

whether that's surviving the Holocaust
or going through the Great Depression

or fighting a war and things like that.

And in a way, just through memory,
we can inherit some of these things.

It's, uh, You know, the, the
oral history of the family, but

epigenetics really goes deeper.

It's, it's the idea that trauma
affects the DNA, you know, without

getting into the, the weeds of
the science about it, but it, it

changes the structure of our DNA.

And then we pass down those sets.

And so it alters, you know, sort
of the emotional trajectory and the

physical trajectory of our descendants.

There's been some fascinating.

Studies of the descendants of Civil War
prisoners of the descendants Holocaust

survivors and It's uh, it's something
that I think in Native American

cultures and indigenous cultures.

They've talked about inherited
trauma forever and Therapists

have talked about it.

There's been specific modalities to
address I think Gwyneth Paltrow is a big

fan of one of those Modalities with their
therapist, but in 2013, there was some

research done at Emory University where
they could finally show one traumatic

event had been transmit across three or
four different generations of laboratory

animals is the first time scientifically
they could, they could show that this is

happening and that was a game changer.

Um, and that's, um, you know, that's
the underpinnings of this whole

Rodney Lee Rogers: novel.

It's fascinating.

And, and then knowing those stories and
like knowing the stories of the past.

Um, we work a lot, uh, Martin Shaw, we
just went to a workshop at his in England

and he, he works on myth and it is the
stories that passed down and knowing

those stories, how does that fit in?

You think with.

with, uh, addressing in it, not, not
in a like a, you know, a specific way,

but like even just in the, in the way
that when you engage with art, how that

might knowing those stories and telling
those stories bring about some change.

Yeah.

Jamie Ford: Yeah, I do.

I don't just think of myself as a writer.

I think of myself as someone in
the compassion creation business.

And I, I do think if you create art,
Whether that's visual art, or music, or

literature, film, um, you know, whatever
you create, if it, if it can give your

empathy muscles, uh, a bit of a workout,
I think that's a good thing, but also,

if it can um, Be sort of a heartfelt
education and you take that art and

you inject that into a body of society.

And I do think in a tiny way you
can inoculate that society against

the things that hold us back.

You know, racism, sexism, classism,
you know, all the isms that we have

been encumbered with for generations.

And I don't, I'm hopeful.

I don't think we'll, you know,
we'll see huge progress in certain

areas for another generation or
two because it does take time.

But, uh, but I am hopeful, you
know, I'm, I'm a stubborn optimist.

Yeah,

Rodney Lee Rogers: such the
important part of storytelling, I

think, and, and, and finding that.

Um, yeah, truly.

Now, when we look at like, we
love to talk process, we love to

talk process and like inspiration.

Um, how when you go about, it doesn't
necessarily have to be, um, the mini

daughters, but like, When you go about
a process of creating these worlds,

these scenes, these people, uh, and I
know this is a broad question, but it's

like, where do you, where do you start?

Like, what do you, what kind of,
and I know it may be different for

different ones, but what hits you first?

Jamie Ford: I always start with a
premise, you know, and in this case,

it was off on way and I'm going to, you
know, give her fictional descendants.

I'll kind of build a story from there.

But I, I, you know, I have a soft spot.

I have a deep abiding
weakness for love stories.

So no matter what I write, it always
sort of bends into this direction of a

love story, whether I whether I want to.

Wanted to or not.

It's kind of my nature And so I always
start from a premise My third book

was about a boy who was raffled off
at the 1909 World's Fair and gave

away a child as a prize It's those
kind of things that it's lost history.

It's true.

And when you tell it to people there's
this, you know It's just moment

where they're like Are you serious?

Did that really happen?

Yeah, that really happened.

We were, we were a different
society a hundred years ago.

We, we operated differently and in
that lost history, I try to explore

those things, but I am half Chinese.

And so, so much of American history
is told through a white European lens.

Right.

A white European lens, a
white male European lens.

So there's all these untold stories.

And I like dusting off, um, those stories.

I like turning over and
looking at the squishy thing.

Yeah.

Rodney Lee Rogers: So
important and so needed.

I mean, I think that's what's
so great about the play, too.

It's like that you're, you're
looking at it at an, in a much,

from a much different angle.

And I know for the performers,
they have brought so much.

of themselves to it in that way, because
of, um, you know, where they, where

they've come from, where they've been,
and then being both in a place and out of

a place, um, which is, you know, that's
that great myth, and Martin Charles

told this myth about the Irish coming to
England, and basically the myth was, they

led him over on a white horse, but the
minute he got off the white horse He, he

would no longer, he would no longer grow.

So it was basically had
to stay on the horse.

So he was of neither world.

So yeah, it's just, uh,
it's really fascinating.

Um,

Jamie Ford: Go

Rodney Lee Rogers: ahead.

When, when you look, um, you know, I
had a great writing teacher way back,

it's just kind of distill everything
down to description and dialogue.

And a lot about what the program is,
is dialogue and what comes out through

conversations, what comes underneath.

Um, in, we look at the different
forms for a novelist, you're kind of

responsible for the whole ball of wax,
you know, nobody's going to come in

and interpret the way something said or
kind of move in a different direction.

How do you, how does that
dialogue come to you?

Do you?

No.

Ooh,

Jamie Ford: um, you have to be, my
first books were fairly simple in their

dialogue because my characters are so
young, they're 12, 13, 14 year olds.

Um, as I have older characters, I
have characters in different fields

of science and things like that.

You have to do your research for one,
but then you have to be kind of an actor.

You have to, I mean it's, it's,
it's a little ridiculous, but You

know, my wife, um, she kind of
describes my office as where I just

play with my imaginary friends.

Yeah.

And that's, that's not far off.

Cause there's times where I am up
here just talking to myself, trying

to work out the dialogue and you have
to play, you have to be everybody.

Um, with a screenwriter, I always
describe screenwriting, it's kind of,

and no insult to screenwriters out there,
but, um, it's like, it's like doing a

blueprint of a house, but someone else
does the electricity, someone does the

plumbing, someone does the, you know,
the paint and the roof, and with a novel,

you do all of it, and so you have to
dance with the details, and then you

also have to, you know, bring these
characters to life, and, uh, an instructor

that I worked with back in the day, he
said, You should always write as though

your characters have immortal souls.

So I try to do that.

I try to make them very real.

And it's always the best compliment
when someone will email me or ask

me, like, are these real people?

If they're fictional.

Then I know I've done my job.

Rodney Lee Rogers: I think that's so true
of like, um, and the writers in general.

I also teach screenwriting.

I've done a lot of screenwriting.

And in screenwriting, it is.

You've got to do it all.

Then you gotta leave a bunch of
it out, and then somebody's gonna

translate it in a very different way.

But Yeah, you have to

Jamie Ford: trust that they're
gonna interpret your vision and

Rodney Lee Rogers: not screw it up.

Right.

And for a novelist, I mean, I guess, you
know, whatever side you're not doing, I'm

sure it's like the romantic vision of,
Whoa, it's all there, and it's all you.

But you do have to be everything.

You have to be the director, you have to
be the writer, you have to be the actor.

You know, you have to set the scenes.

There's so much you're just creating
through those symbols on the page.

Um, does that ever get daunting?

Jamie Ford: Um, you know, when it gets
daunting is when I, when I have to

turn it over to other minds, honestly,
um, I mean, I shouldn't say daunting,

but I, I have to divorce myself from
my own expectations because I'm, you

know, I no longer have my, my hand on
the steering wheel and that's fine.

As long as you trust the driver.

Um, and that, and therein is the rub
of, you know, finding the perfect

relationship to translate, uh, you know,
You know, a novel into a, into a film

and

Rodney Lee Rogers: things like that.

Now, are you in the process of that now
with The Many Daughters of Va Phuong Mui?

Jamie Ford: Yeah, The Many
Daughters of Va Phuong Mui has been

optioned by Jenna Bush's company.

And she's, she's really going for it.

She's optioned a lot of books.

She's giving voice to, you know, a
lot of, uh, people that perhaps in the

past didn't have their voices heard.

So I'm, I'm a big fan of what she's doing.

She's brought in a great screenwriter
who's been working on it.

Up until the writer's strike.

Yes.

From my understanding, as soon as
the writer's strike is over, they're,

they're good to go to start pitching.

Um, so I, I 100 percent support all
of, uh, you know, the striking writers.

The, the world is changing.

Yeah.

And they need to be compensated fairly
and they need to be protected against.

You know, AI stripping them of
their creativity and, uh, you know,

harvesting their creativity and then
repackaging it for free for someone else.

So that's a whole other issue.

But yeah, Jenna's, um, her company
is called a thousand voices and

she's, you know, she's really using
her, her superpowers for good.

She's got a huge platform, huge
audience, and she's a huge reader.

You know, mom's a librarian and the great
thing about Jenna is, I mean, we can talk

about my book, but we can talk about.

Any book because she's read everything
and, um, it's just really satisfying

to see someone that is in the public
sphere in such a large way, who

was such a tremendous, you know,
advocate for, for books and, and

Rodney Lee Rogers: Will you get, will
you, in other words, is it something you

kind of turn over and then you're going
to see it later, or will you be at all

involved in the process going through it?

Jamie Ford: Um, I'm an,
I'm an executive producer.

Oh, there you go.

Yeah.

To the extent of what that means.

Um, you know, it varies from,
from, uh, production to production.

Right.

In some cases it's very,
It's very ceremonial.

It's just worked into your contract.

But in this case, Jenna and her producing
partner have been great at keeping me

in the loop of checking in with me,
asking me what I think about this.

Um, you know, when they were looking
for screenwriters, they sent me a huge

list of 30 screenwriters and we talked
about, um, you know, ones that we like.

But I, I really trust them.

Right.

Um, they, it's a separate art form.

And I, I want, uh, you know, to trust that
they're going to hire people who are in

that field and then just turn them loose.

And the person that, um, who's
been working on the screenplays is

amazing and has a track record that
is, uh, is current and powerful.

And, um, I, I hopefully want
to be, uh, want to be a part

of, you know, of her resume

Rodney Lee Rogers: someday.

Well, that's, it's such,
it's so perfect for series.

Like I was so happy to hear that
it was going to be expansive

because, you know, there's so many.

There's so many routes and ways
to go and I bet, I bet it's

going to be very exciting to see.

Yeah, there's

Jamie Ford: An interesting time right now,
because I do think we're in the golden age

of, you know, streaming media, but we're
also in the golden age of cultural cross

pollination, where we are getting out of
our lanes and reading books and watching

films about other people's experiences,
instead of going to the movies and

it just being a mirror and we're kind
of seeing ourselves and everything.

So I think it's, um, I think
it's a really good time for

this, for the story to be told.

It's

Rodney Lee Rogers: also when commercially,
I mean I think commercially those,

those types of, um, We'll call it
entertainment because I'm like you,

it's like when it gets to be art or
when it really starts to affect you,

it starts to focus, you know, more than
distract, it's entertainment and it's

really those things are doing so well.

I mean I don't know if you've seen
Barbie and like Oppenheimer, those

are, these are thoughtful films.

And they're hitting on such a large
scale, um, so it's exciting to see.

Yeah, it's

Jamie Ford: like it's nice to see
huge blockbusters that are not remakes

not sequels totally fresh and You
know some some different Use some

different people producing these things.

So it's Excited.

I'm very hopeful again.

I'm a stubborn optimist.

Yeah, it's easy to be cynical and jaded
and bitter and I have my down moments, but

in general Um, I think we're moving in a,
in a positive direction despite, you know,

the noise and conflict and Twitter and

Rodney Lee Rogers: things like that.

Yeah, and when you do, so do you have
Do you want to work in other mediums?

Are you thinking about them at all?

I don't know, like maybe plays?

You know, anything to that effect?

Jamie Ford: Yeah, I mean, I've, I've
dabbled with writing screenplays,

but it is a very specific art.

It's a very specific craft, and when
people do it really well, you know, I

sort of bow down to their superior skill.

It's, I, it's just, I just
think it's, there's a little

bit of an arrogance to think.

And occasionally I'll teach like a
writing workshop and there'll be someone

who's a doctor, just like, I'm a doctor,
therefore I can write a brilliant novel.

And that's not, those two
things do not correlate.

And, um, just because I can write
a best selling, uh, novel or two

or three, um, doesn't mean I'm
going to be a great screenwriter.

Doesn't mean I don't want to try.

Right.

I'm not on the side kind of
just trying to figure this out.

But, um, for this production especially,
You know, I, I, I want the best

people on it, and when it comes to
screenwriting, I'm not the best people.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Well, I would
encourage you to keep, because

it's so, so much of both plays
and screenwriting is the dialogue.

It's, it's what's carried underneath
and through the scenes, and your,

I think your dialogue's wonderful.

So, you know, I think it, I think
it really kind of comes across.

Well, thank you.

Yeah.

Jamie Ford: Maybe I'll jump off
this call and I'll give it a shot.

There you

Rodney Lee Rogers: go.

Well, yeah, it's always,
it's always a good thing.

And you know, with the theater,
you know, we're here if you ever,

is there anything you want to do?

Yeah.

Jamie Ford: And I, and
I love, I love theater.

I love musical theater and,
and I grew up in Ashland,

Oregon, which is a theater town.

So I've just been surrounded by,
um, by the theater world and, and,

and the people in and about it.

It's a great

Rodney Lee Rogers: community.

I love Ashland.

I drove, uh, all the way.

I was in Seattle for a
while in the nineties.

I drove all the way to
Ashland to audition for.

the Shakespeare Festival.

So it was just a
beautiful, beautiful place.

That's incredible.

Jamie Ford: Yeah.

Yeah.

Great place.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Yeah.

Going back to, um, to the novel.

So what are you working on now?

Like what's, what's formulating?

Yeah.

Jamie Ford: As I laugh nervously.

And you don't have

Rodney Lee Rogers: to, like,
you don't have to like, yeah.

Jamie Ford: Oh, no, you know,
I'm usually pretty transparent

about everything I'm working on.

And if I change my mind,
you know, I'm human.

I changed my mind and throw
something away and start again.

I'm actually working on, it's
like a historical crime novel.

Um, and I, it's way more than that,
but that's, you know, that's sort

of the, the reductive statement.

And I'm, I'm, I'm bringing a character
to life that was pretty popular.

A couple generations ago, um, and
has, and has disappeared, and I'm,

I'm trying to reinvent that character.

That's all I'm gonna say about that.

I

Rodney Lee Rogers: have guesses,
but I'll take those off air later.

Yeah, I'm

Jamie Ford: sure, I'm sure
you might suspect we're

probably the same generation.

Yes.

Oh, wait a minute.

Yeah.

It's a character that fell into the
public domain in the last couple years.

Yeah.

And is kind of radioactive, but I
want to, uh, Attempt a reinvention.

We'll see if I stick

the

Rodney Lee Rogers: landing.

I'm very excited about that.

Very excited.

Cool.

Um, now when you work on a novel,
like we were talking about, you

know, letting it out the door.

You know, when do you decide, and
I think this is true for a lot of

people who write in that medium, when
do other people Start to look at it.

How much feedback do you take?

Do you have trusted readers?

You know what who uh, Stephen
King calls it the ideal reader.

How do you how do you go about?

Knowing when it's ready

Jamie Ford: I'm I Realized that
I'm a total outlier in how I work.

I have friends and You know, larger
cities and they have these writing

groups and you know, kind of a
collective group of friends and they

share work I um, I live in montana.

So I i'm not surrounded by people that
do what I do Um, and my first reader

is my wife my wife alicia and she's
a fantastic first editor for me Um,

and I my work You know, I feel really
naked if I send something out that she

hasn't read and edited and she's really
honest, like she just writes things

in the margins, like, yeah, I can tell
that you wrote this at the end of the

day, because it's kind of lazy writing.

Very honest with me.

Yeah.

So right, like white girl moment,
like I have some Chinese term that she

has no idea what I'm talking about.

Like, okay, I need that.

Um, but yeah, it's, it goes from her to.

My editor, um, and then I cover my
agent on it, you know, some people

have a, like an editorial editorial
relationship with their agent and, and I.

It's not that she's not great at
that, but I, I, I want to minimize

the number of cooks in the kitchen.

And so she defers to my editor who
has purchased the book, who becomes

the book's, you know, the very
godmother, the advocate for that book.

That's awesome.

So it's really a, it's um, you
know, it's a, it's a microcosm

of just a couple of people.

Rodney Lee Rogers: She, you, she is quite
literally the Stephen King ideal reader.

I don't know if you ever read that
book on writing, but it's like, that's

exactly, that's exactly how he goes.

Um, That's how, that's how I do it.

Yeah.

Um.

So Montana, how, how does that inform,
that's such an interesting, it sounds

like the solitude, I mean I, again, I'm
hearing Montana, I'm assuming you were

like on a map, like in the middle of
nowhere, but that might not be the case.

But is, how does that inform your
work, and, and is that type of peace,

is that type of quiet, necessary,
is that like, does that help?

Jamie Ford: Um, you know, it, it
probably speaks to my, uh, my authorly

insecurity, honestly, like I, I don't
want to live in Brooklyn where you can

throw a rock and hit another author.

And you're always comparing yourself to
other people and there's kind of a scene

and there's a pecking order and I'm just
not a You know, I've been to high school

once I don't need to do it again I'm good.

Yeah And in Montana, I can kind of
divorce myself from those expectations,

you know, I have friends here that
just know me as Jamie They don't know

me as you know, Jamie the Best selling
author and and they don't care They're

just they just know me as a person.

I think that's that's healthy
and I'm in Seattle all the time

I'm in Seattle where I grew up.

I'm there almost every month.

And so I do have my big city fix and I
do have Obligations there that are More

grown up obligations if you will That I
need to do out there But when I'm here,

you know, it's it's funny when I first
my first book was a huge bestseller

and I I'd go to the grocery store and
people are like, you, you're still here.

Like, yeah, I live here.

I have kids in school.

Like, did they expect Salmon Rush?

You roll up in a minivan, like
get in, we're going to New York.

And, uh, I'm just, I'm a West Coast kid.

Um, even though my mom was
from the South and, um.

Yeah, I like the peace, I like the quiet.

Um, I do live in a town, about 50,
000 people, but you go to the edge of

town and, you know, the town stops.

And cows begin.

So, um, it is very rural
and I, and I like that.

Yeah,

Rodney Lee Rogers: and
still children at home?

Jamie Ford: You know, we
are empty nesters now.

Oh,

Rodney Lee Rogers: I'm inches away.

We have our, our 18 year
old is the last one at home.

So, yeah.

How is that?

Yeah.

How's it informed you
being an empty nester?

It's, it's,

Jamie Ford: it's set my writing
schedule, honestly, truly.

Like, you know, I get up in a
right, even now my writing day

stops at three in the afternoon.

Cause that's when the bus rolls in
with the kids and I gotta be dad.

So I'm, I'm still in that
pattern, which is, which is fine.

It works for me.

It's a good way to work.

Um, but yeah, we had a blended
family of six children.

So we had a lot of chaos now.

Um, We have six wonderful, interesting,
young human beings out doing their

thing and making their way in the

Rodney Lee Rogers: world.

So, so awesome.

Well, Jamie, I could talk to you all
afternoon, but we're right out of time.

It's such a pleasure.

Thank you so much for coming on
today and sharing yourself with us.

Um, all the best in the future.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Jamie Ford: and everyone
out there, go see this play.

It's, uh, it's wonderful
and you'll love it.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Thank
you so much, Jamie.