January 8, 2024 31:02 E4

MICHAEL SMALLWOOD

Michael Smallwood: I've
always loved stories.

I've always loved
telling people's stories.

Um, it's how I sort of connect to people.

It's kind of how I connect
to the concept of humanity.

Um, you know, I, I, I think that
narrative is in a lot of ways, um, the

most important human evolutionary tool.

And

Rodney Lee Rogers: Smallwood,
actor, director, producer,

podcaster, he's done it all.

It's been with the theater for years.

A great friend, really
enjoyed the conversation.

Hope you will as well.

One of my mentors, John Osborne
Hughes, used to always quote the

playwright Terence, that towering
playwright of ancient Greece.

Terence had a quote said, I am human and
therefore nothing human is alien to me.

Never is that more apropos
than during the holidays.

We get a lot of family with a capital F,
but it can be an amazing time of year.

I certainly hope yours was.

The Lehman Brothers opens
this week at the theater.

A lot of preparation going into it.

But, as you would have it with any type
of theater production, there's gotta be

a little bit of a wrench thrown into it.

Uh, my other great mentor, Jim Gloucester,
used to always say, Okay, nothing be easy.

So we're looking at some kind of
weather event tomorrow with flooding.

I just got the call from my daughter's
school that they will be closed.

So if you got nowhere to go, that
was a great time to check out our

conversation with Michael Smoll.

Welcome, Michael.

Hey, how's it going?

Michael Smallwood: Thanks for having me on

Rodney Lee Rogers: the Dialogues.

Well, the first thing I knew was
I was not going to have trouble,

uh, getting you to pipe up.

No,

Michael Smallwood: I've been
sitting here, uh, sad on my

hands, trying not to interrupt
your very brilliant introduction.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Uh, well, this is,
where I like to start, I always like

to start is to make your way back.

Think about Let's just
start the conversation out.

When did you know that
you were going to act?

When did you know or decide?

You said, yeah, we're going way
back and then we'll move forward

Michael Smallwood: quickly.

Uh, so, uh, I've told the story
before to people, I guess.

I don't know place that I would have told
this story, but, uh, uh, second grade.

Yeah.

Um, I got to play Santa Claus.

Uh, and a school, like, pageant thing.

Um, and specifically, you know, they were,
we were, the teacher was kind of like,

gonna choose a kid to play Santa Claus.

And I was like, no, I would also like
the opportunity to play Santa Claus.

And so she was like, okay, I
guess we'll have auditions.

And I got the part and they
had to like, I was very tiny.

So they had to tie several pillows
to me to make it like look right.

But I got to play Santa
Claus in second grade.

And I've been kind of looking for reasons
to be in front of an audience ever since.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Do you
remember what that felt like?

Like, like, what were the feelings
that kind of came up in front of

that crowd for that first time?

Oh,

Michael Smallwood: um, I think this
is going to sound weird, but I don't

really have any memories before it.

Yeah.

You know, it's, um, very much
one of those things of like, no,

no, no, this is where I start.

Like, my story starts, I guess.

So okay.

So an even further back story that I
guess is actually the genesis of maybe

that story, um, is that my, my mom tells,
likes to tell this, this story of like

that I, as a three year old or two,
like two or three year old, like didn't

know how to read yet, but I would go.

I would listen to her read books to
me and like, memorize them, and like,

I would know where she would turn
the page, and I would take, sometimes

take my books and like, mark them for
like, to be continued pages and stuff,

and so then she would have parties.

And I would go up to the adults
and be like, look, I can read.

And I would just recite the book,
complete with where the page turns are.

Oh, wow.

My parents would stand there and listen
to people be like, Oh my God, he's

so smart to be reading at his age.

And they're like, uh huh.

How'd that make you feel?

Pretty great.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Well, and
Michael's very accomplished writer

as well, screenwriter and filmmaker.

That's fascinating.

That whole part of like how that
story kind of found its way in.

Um, did that start the

Michael Smallwood: love of it?

Yeah, I mean, I, I've, I've,
I've always loved stories.

I've always loved telling people stories.

Um, it's how I sort of connect to people.

It's kind of how I connect
to the concept of humanity.

Um, you know, I, I, I think
that narrative is in a lot of

ways, um, the most important.

Human evolutionary tool, um, certainly
one of the most foundationally

structural to the way that we perceive
time, the way that we perceive

ourselves, our purpose in life.

Uh, the way we move through the human
experience is through the concept of

narrative, beginning, middle, end.

We think of our histories, our past,
not as like random collections of

days, but as compiled stories, like
my time in high school, my childhood.

my time at that job and always
in the concept of a narrative.

Um, so I've always just loved being a
part of that and I've loved, you know.

Telling stories that help people kind
of understand what they're doing now.

Rodney Lee Rogers: It may have happened
then, but let's fast forward to the

time you decided, okay, I'm going
to take this on as a profession.

Do you know when that happened?

Uh,

Michael Smallwood: when I gave up
being a pro wrestler, I guess, um,

Rodney Lee Rogers: well,
you got to do them both.

I did eventually.

Michael Smallwood: Uh, no, I, I, I,
even, even wanting to be a pro wrestler,

like my, my childhood dream has always
been part, like pro wrestling is just

acting with lots of stage combat.

I either, like, like I said, it's
really been a thing of like, I kind

of have always known, um, that I
wanted to tell stories to people,

that I wanted to entertain people,
um, ever since I saw Jurassic Park.

As a kid, uh, I was like, whatever
this is, I want to be a part of that.

Like that was the moment where
I was like, Oh no, no, no.

Movies are the most
important thing in the world.

I want to be a part of
however you do this.

Um, so yeah, pretty much since a
kid I've been like, no, no, no.

That's what I'm going to do.

So there was never any

Rodney Lee Rogers: like.

Michael Smallwood: The only other
job that I want, again, this is

entertainment, but the only other
job I wanted is I wanted to be Mr.

Rogers.

Oh yeah.

Um, as a kid.

'cause I thought that was just a
job you could grow up and have.

It's not all

Rodney Lee Rogers: that great being Mr.

Rogers.

Being Mr.

Rogers.

No, I'm kidding.

.
Michael Smallwood: I just, I just
thought he was the, the coolest guy.

Yeah.

Who existed.

And I was like, well that
looks like a really great job.

You get to like, wear really
comfortable sweaters and hang

out with puppets all day.

I would like to do that

Rodney Lee Rogers: job.

Well, an amazing storyteller too.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, you think about
how he told the stories.

Michael Smallwood: So yeah, all of the
jobs I've ever, like, it's just always

been the thing of like, well, yeah, I'm
going to do this, whatever the form of

that it takes, um, like the specifics.

I don't, I no longer want to be Mr.

Rogers because I now understand
that I could never be Mr.

Rogers.

Um, but, uh, yeah, like, you
know, the, the, the instinct

has It's kind of always been

Rodney Lee Rogers: there.

And when did you come to
Charleston for the first time?

Michael Smallwood: Oh, uh, I came to, I
went to college here, so I came here in

like 2004, uh, I guess the first time
I would have come here would have been

a year before that to like tour St.

Vincent.

To tour St.

Vincent.

Um, I remember touring the school
and telling my dad, I was like, Hey,

we should go ahead and buy a shirt
cause I'm going to go to school here.

You knew?

Yeah.

I, I knew, I knew pretty immediately.

I, um, uh, one of my, one of
my best friends went here.

So he had been giving me some reports
about the school and it all sounded great.

And then I came and toured
it and I was like, yeah, I'm

going to go to school here.

And my dad was like, well, we're
touring another school next week.

Do you not want to wait?

I was like, I mean, we can, but I'm
going to go to school, school here.

And then the next week we were at the
other school in the middle of the tour.

I leaned over my dad and I was like.

I should have bought that shirt last week.

So I was like, I'm going to the CFC.

Um, and I've, with the exception
of, you know, I worked in Atlanta

for a year after graduation.

But other than that, I've been here.

Rodney Lee Rogers: And did
you come straight into the

theater department or did you?

Yeah,

Michael Smallwood: yeah, yeah.

There was never even a hint of
wanting to do anything else.

I was like, no, no, no.

I'm going to be a theater major.

I'm going to, um, I'm going to act.

I picked up playwriting,
um, while I was here.

And you know, that became a big part
of my theater identity as a student.

But, uh, yeah, no, I was,
I was, I was, I was all in.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Who was
teaching playwriting at that time?

Franklin Ashley.

Good old Franklin.

Good old

Michael Smallwood: Franklin Ashley.

I learned under the great.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Franklin was awesome.

Awesome.

Um, now moving forward, I
always like to get into Pure.

What was your first show at Pure?

Do you remember?

Yeah, Superior Donuts.

Superior

Michael Smallwood: Donuts.

Yeah.

I had just moved back to Charleston
after my year in Atlanta.

Uh, I did a show at Footlight.

I did a Risen in the sun.

Right.

And then, uh, yeah, I was like
doing, I was be bopping around.

I was just doing stuff.

I came in as a guest artist at, uh,
School of the Arts and ran into you.

Mm hmm.

And you were like, hey, we've
got this show coming up.

Do you want to come audition for it?

I was like, yes, I do.

Yes, I do.

And I had seen Pure shows before.

I was aware of Pure.

You know, I had seen stuff as a student.

But, uh, and the show that always
sticks out to me is the one that

I'm like, Oh yeah, I definitely
saw that was, this is how it goes.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Yeah.

Yeah.

Johnny Hayward.

Yeah.

Michael Smallwood: That's
the one I always think about.

I'm like, I definitely saw that one.

Yeah.

Um, and then, yeah, and then, you know,
that's, that's kind of how I came.

I started, I did Superior Donuts
in a store front on East Bay.

And, uh.

That was an experience

Rodney Lee Rogers: too.

Yeah.

We were kind of a little.

Out and about at that

Michael Smallwood: time.

Two shows in that storefront.

Yeah.

Straight through and then it
was like, Nothing like winter

Rodney Lee Rogers: in
the middle of May, right?

Michael Smallwood: The coats.

And then, yeah, no, I've been, I've
been part of the company ever since.

Very good.

And how

Rodney Lee Rogers: many,
do you know how many shows?

Oh my god.

Uh, Yeah, it's hard to count, right?

Michael Smallwood: Oh,
I, I don't have a number.

Um, Uh, I don't know.

It's all right.

A lot.

I mean, what I, let's see, I've been
with Pierre for, this'll be 12 years.

Good Lord.

Really?

I've done what a show.

At least one show every,
I mean, sometimes three.

Let's say

Rodney Lee Rogers: 15.

Yeah.

Let's say 15.

Yeah.

Let's,

Michael Smallwood: let's a
bunch, let's round it to 15.

Somewhere in there.

Any great,

Rodney Lee Rogers: any, um.

Favorite moments.

Oh,

Michael Smallwood: a lot.

You know, I was thinking about this
earlier, because I feel like he's going

to ask me what my favorite pure show
I've been in is, like, it's tough.

It changes whatever I'm thinking about.

I mean, obviously, like,
look, I got, we got to do the

Elaborate Interest in Chad Dini.

Which was amazing.

I got to be a professional wrestler.

So obviously it's that, but
also like, I loved working

on, I loved Marie Antoinette.

I just loved playing.

Louis the 16th.

I mean, what a great role.

The Royale is maybe the
best play I've ever been in.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Another Ringed show.

Yeah, like that, that

Michael Smallwood: script, that
character, the work, like just so good.

Um, you know, the agitators, uh, it
was incredible and I loved doing that.

Malemus, I mean, the list goes on.

Yeah.

Rodney Lee Rogers: There's so many.

Well, for those, uh, listening, the
elaborate entrance of Chad Didi was a

wrestling play and we installed a very
real wrestling ring in the middle.

of the theater, which was amazing
for my children, amazing for

Michael Smallwood: everybody.

Amazing for this child, uh, talk about
favorite moments coming into rehearsal

that day, knowing that the ring was
going to be there, walking in, seeing

the ring and being like, Oh my God,
there's a wrestling ring in here.

And just kind of freaking out.

And then somebody being like,
why don't you come get in it?

And I was like, Oh yeah, I
get to get into the ring.

And then that entire rehearsal
of like being taught to bump.

Like, learning to take the powerball,
like, just running drills in the

ring, getting home and, like,
not really being able to move.

Uh, like, that's my favorite day.

Like, it's my favorite
day of rehearsal ever.

The, the sheer amount of boyhood
joy that that moment gave me.

Rodney Lee Rogers: It's something
we forget sometimes with theater.

We do get to play.

We get to play so much and it's
such a, it's such an amazing gift.

And just the infectiousness, the
memory of that is, it's awesome.

Um, as you, uh, move forward, so
you live here full time, this is,

this is, this is where you live.

What, what other things have kind
of popped up for you to do to

keep that life as an actor going?

Michael Smallwood: All sorts of stuff.

I mean, you know, I, I, I, I've, I've
been a writer since, since college,

um, I continue to write plays.

I just wrote a new play that
hopefully, I think we're going to

do a reading of sometime here soon.

Um, it's one of

Rodney Lee Rogers: our initiatives is
the pure labs just to really do a lot

of new work and that's our, um, yeah.

Goal over the next five years is
really get a lot of new work out there.

I'm super excited

Michael Smallwood: to develop this play.

Um, you know, I, I've Moved into,
you know, writing screenplays.

Um, I directed a short film, uh, two
years ago that I'm very proud of.

Um, in the works right now in
early stages of trying to get

together, pull together a feature.

Um, and then, yeah, I mean, I
get to, I get to act, uh, in, in.

Television and movies and, and theater,
um, I get to direct, uh, I've been working

with the college of Charleston late, a
lot lately, which has been very exciting.

I love, um, I love working
with emerging artists.

So, uh, you know, teaching and
directing at the college has been great.

Like this, you know, like
there's not a better word for it.

And I was trying and
there's just nothing there.

So I'll just go with great.

And then, um, Um, Yeah, I mean, I, you
know, that's, that keeps me pretty full.

And then of course, you know, I
get to do all of the, the pure

education stuff, which is, you know,

Rodney Lee Rogers: which has really been,
and as we get into this idea, like the

joy of it, the play of it, it's such a
great thing to kind of be able to find

in other people, especially young people.

Michael Smallwood: Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's, I kind of fell into it accidentally.

I kind of like was like, I'm looking for
some stuff to do in between gigs and.

Um, you know, doing guest artists, like
doing that guest artist thing at, at, at

school, the artists, which is how we met.

And then, um, you know, that became,
okay, well now I'm working for the office

of cultural affairs in North Charleston
doing afterschool programs that way.

And then it led to, okay, well now I'm
teaching at a private school and, and,

you know, then coming on and working,
uh, for, for PURE's education, uh, arm.

It's just like one of the things I
tell people is that like, you know,

I've spent this career building up all
these different skills and having all

these different experiences that like
I didn't know were coming because none

of my theater teachers outlined any
of it like they just didn't, you know,

for the variety of reasons that they
could not all like, you know, my, my

high school drama teacher had never
done nearly the amount of stuff that

I've been fortunate to do in my career.

Some of my college professors had
never done some of the stuff that

I was able to do in my career.

So.

The idea of getting to go back and
work with, you know, middle school

students, high school students,
college students, and give them all

these things that like, hey, you do
not know any of this stuff is coming.

Let me outline like how this is
actually going to be helpful.

Like, let me guide you through.

Oh, yeah.

When I was where you are, this is
what's very hard for you right now.

But let me explain to you the
things that are kind of in your way.

Like, I don't know.

There's like, what else is the point
of my, of all the experiences I've

had, if I'm not sharing them with
people who can use them to navigate the

next 10 or 15 years of their career.

Rodney Lee Rogers: And it's such the job
of the artists is to cobble it together.

Yeah.

Especially when you're kind of out here
in the hinterlands compared to like.

You know, that work that's a little
more consistent, but I don't think

for any actor work is consistent.

It's always trying to figure

Michael Smallwood: it out.

And it's, again, it's, you know, the
idea of like, of narrative being the

way that we shape our experience.

Right.

It's.

I, I've had all these experiences, but
have, you know, as, as they happen,

there's no rhyme or reason to them.

There's just like, Oh, this is
kind of just how this works.

Okay.

I didn't know that before, but
now I can contextualize it.

Now I can put, I can build that into
the narrative for someone else of

like, okay, no, no, this is what
your career is gonna look like.

This is how it's going to evolve
as opposed to like, you know.

It's, it's a very nebulous, nothing
kind of understanding of like what it

actually is, or you, or even worse, you
have like a flawed understanding of like,

what is the career going to be when I
graduate high school, when I graduate

college, like, what is it going to
actually feel like to be a working artist?

And I Now I'm in a position where I
can be like, hey, I can kind of answer

that question for you and it's not what
you think Let me help you through that.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Well in the huge
range So with Pura you've been out at

Hot Gap for is it three four years?

This will be year four That's crazy.

So for the fourth year, and so you're
working with these kids really Young

and excited and then on the other
hand in the summers then you work

in the Gale yard so then you work in
this space that's just Extraordinary.

Yeah.

Program wise, how, how do
the kids kind of fit into it?

How do you?

What have you found out at, uh, the
kids who are taking these classes?

Oh, so it's

Michael Smallwood: a, they're very
different, our summer program and our

year long program are very different.

One, obviously, because
of the age of the kids.

Like the middle schoolers,
I love middle schoolers.

I know people, some
people, like get a bad rap.

Middle schoolers get a bad
rap and it's kind of justified

sometimes, but also I love them.

Um.

They're so excited.

They're able to understand and
deal with like bigger concepts, but

they're, you know, they're not jaded.

They're not, you know, they
can still be pretty amazed

by what you're offering them.

Um, and they really do want to, they want
time to learn how to be good at something.

We have a lot more time with the
middle schoolers than we do with

our summer, um, students, obviously.

Um, so we can really, you know,
let them sort of grow into it.

themselves.

It's not so much about
like the final product.

It's more about like, what
is the experience that

you're getting out of this?

How, how are you growing and how is
this as, as their teachers will freely

tell us, how is this bleeding into
the rest of your school day, right?

Our summer kids are there
because they are already.

Kids who are engaged in the theater,
um, at their home schools, and

they're looking for something more.

They're looking to, you
know, to do a big production.

They're looking to, to have some advanced
training, and they get it in the summer.

Because, like, there's no time
for anything else, you know?

We, we, we have a three week summer
camp, and really, that three weeks

is roughly two and a half weeks
of getting to work on the show.

Um, and so it's like, okay, from
start to finish, we're gonna build

a show in two and a half weeks.

Like, you gotta bring it.

Uh, and it is, it really is the training
for those kids of like, this is what

it's gonna kind of be like as pros, kids.

Like, get in there, like, get your work
done, get off book, focus, let's go.

And I love that.

I, I never had that experience growing
up of like, you know, we're, we're gonna

do this show quickly and to professional
standards in this, like, Beautiful.

I'm very jealous.

I haven't gotten to perform
on the Gale Yard stage.

I'm itching for that opportunity,
but like all these like high

school kids have got to do it.

It's cool.

It's whatever.

But like, I'm, I, I love that for
them because it's because, you

know, there's something about that.

And you've been there.

Like, there's something about that first
day when they walk into the Gale Yard and

they see that space and they, they are
working with professional, um, lighting

designers and, and stage managers, and
they are in dressing rooms and they.

Know that like, okay, the fact that
we're in this building, like you now

have to fill that house with your
voices, that performance has to read,

and you have three days, like, I
love how real it becomes for them.

It's not like, not that there's anything
diminished about like doing a performance

at school or for their parents or anything
like that, but there's, you know, there's

a legitimacy to doing it in that space.

in the summer that I think
is a huge challenge for

anybody who is looking for it.

Right.

And our, our, our summer students are
always looking for that challenge.

It's always

Rodney Lee Rogers: amazing how
far they go, how far you get them.

Like it's like, and I think that's
The real superpower of young people

in general, it's just that ability.

Like with young, when we did the
camps years ago, you always get to

that second to last day and you're
like, this is going to be debacle.

This is going to be disaster.

But then the day when it
comes, boom, there it all is.

It's amazing how much they

Michael Smallwood: absorb.

But even that, I mean, you know.

That's true of all theater.

How many, you know, young people, sure.

But we've, we've both been at shows
where we're like, is this going to

come together tomorrow or like, and
people are like, how's the show coming?

It's going to open, like
it'll open tomorrow.

We'll see how it opens.

And then like, you know,
it's, it's great rave reviews.

We're, you know, we're there.

And I, I love that.

I love that they're meeting the challenges
that we set for ourselves, which is,

um, I think just such a great way for.

You know, the, the best ways to grow
or to be forced to do the thing or

to be, and to be doing it with people
who you need, you need to match.

I, I love that we give
them those opportunities.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Yeah, it's always,
the power of theater is always amazing.

Um, another real fulfilling part
over the years has been working

with the educators and the teachers.

Like, I'm, I'm like Lee McLeod, all
those, just like how Excited and into it.

They get, you got any stories
there, like experiences?

Michael Smallwood: mean, we had like,
you know, obviously leave a cloud has

been, you know, our, our, uh, liaison
at, at hot gap who won't be there.

We'll have a new one this year, uh,
which I'm super excited about working

with a new person, but like, you know,
it's, it's one of the things of like,

well, you come into these schools and
you work with these students, the, the in

school educators know all the students.

Um, and even they sometimes don't know
yet, like what all the kids are capable

of when you give them that opportunity.

When you give them a script and ask them
to play this character to, you know,

channel themselves through this energy.

It can be very eye opening
even for the teachers.

It can be eye opening
for the kids themselves.

You know, they, they, they learn things
about themselves and about each other

that they don't really know going in.

Um, and then of course just how excited
and how like willing the teachers have

been not just to like Support the kids
and help but to like get involved like

I think Lee's been in two of the shows
we've had to end up doing um, just to have

to jump in and Jumping in with a vigor.

That's like Haley Maybe should
come audition for some stuff.

Like I don't like you've got you
know Like you didn't know that

you were really good at this.

Um, we've had other teachers will be
like, hey Can I have a role in the show?

It's like yes.

Yes, you can you have to be at rehearsal
these days and and and Genuinely, thank

us for the opportunity So, you know,
it's the the educators are getting

just as much out of it and and you know
After a few years you leave them in a

state that's like We don't leave them
but like they're in a state to where

it's like, you know Well, if I needed
to not be here, you could do this.

Yeah, you absolutely could run this
you didn't think that you could Direct

theater you didn't think that you
knew it But you now from working with

us like have a full command of it
and you can give it to the students.

Yeah

Rodney Lee Rogers: That's really
the, the desire of the program.

It's really where we'd love to go.

How many kids do you think you have
given to bring this back around

that Santa Claus experience to?

That's pretty awesome, isn't it?

If you think about it.

Michael Smallwood: Oh,
I don't, I don't know.

I can't, I don't, I can't, I can't
even think about, okay, I don't know.

Rodney Lee Rogers: It'll be
a joy to watch, I'm sure, as

they kind of move forward.

Michael Smallwood: You know, so I will
say that I have had the opportunity to

work with a bunch of kids who have You
know, done a show or done a, you know,

program with me and at various stages
over the years and seeing them continue

it past that and been very, very proud
of the work that they continue to do.

Um, I'm in a movie right now.

I'm not in a movie right now.

We're on the air, but I, I.

I did a movie that is premiering at
festivals right now and one of the

cast members is someone who I trained
through our, uh, our afterschool

youth company a couple of years ago.

Who is it?

Oh, it's Naona Sanchez.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, ended up like the director
needed somebody and I was like, you

know, actually I have somebody who
should, who could read for that.

Yeah.

And, uh, we did a movie together and
so sort of like, you know, seeing,

like getting to to then share the.

The screen with her, seeing her
get to be, you know, um, being

allotted for this, this performance.

And it's like, yeah, I'm
very, very proud of that.

Um, I, I, you know, there's a,
there's a, there's a CFC student

who is now a theater major at CFC.

Who's one of our summer candidates.

And it's like, Oh man.

Rodney Lee Rogers: She's
in the show with Sharon.

Yeah.

Michael Smallwood: yeah.

Oh, that's awesome.

Right.

So how great is that?

Like getting to see them
continue their career.

It's, it's, it's incredibly rewarding.

Yeah.

So.

Oh man, now I'm going to be thinking
about that Santa Claus thing.

I can't, I can't think

Rodney Lee Rogers: about that.

Well, making that transition into
film, everybody, I think for every

writer, actor, performer, there's that.

There's two worlds.

I always love to think of theater as
the mother, the nurturing one, the one

that gets you there in the father's
film, the one you want to make proud.

How

Michael Smallwood: do

Rodney Lee Rogers: you find Those two
mediums and moving in between them.

Uh,

Michael Smallwood: there is,
there is like when I'm on a movie

set, I, I, I do miss feedback.

Like, you know, a movie set is a
machine and it is running and it

has to, you know, you're having fun,
but you have to make the day and

there's really no audience, right?

Yeah.

The audience comes later
after the movie's done.

Um, so, you know, I, I was
shooting Halloween kills.

I was on set and it's like,
okay, so these are jokes.

And then it's like, okay, at some
point, someone's going to laugh at this.

Maybe I was telling people like when
it, when it got, like, you know, how

we killed, I shot it in 2019 and the
movie came out in 2021 and I joked

with some of my friends, I was like,
you try telling a joke and waiting two

years to see if someone laughs at it.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Did you, did
you experience that in the theater?

Would you go to the theater?

Like you experienced a laugh?

Yep.

Did you get the laugh?

Yep.

Michael Smallwood: I legitimately,
so the first time I saw the movie,

I was at the premiere and we were,
I was sitting there and there was a

scene where I was specifically like,
this moment is supposed to be funny.

Yeah.

And so as it kept getting closer, I was
like, Oh my God, what if no one laughs?

I've been for two years thinking
about this and being like, people

are going to think that's funny.

And like, what if nobody laughs?

And then people laughed and I
genuinely melted into the chair.

I was like.

And I was like, Oh my God, I was
so tense for like 20 minutes.

I was worried that people weren't
going to like that one line.

Oh man.

And it's, it is a, and that's the
thing with movies too, is that

like a lot of times you're not
there for people's reaction to it.

Um, so, you know, theater,
you're there every night,

you're there with that audience.

You can tell if what you're
doing is working and it is.

You know, I, I love that.

I love that back and forth between
performers and, and audience members.

And film doesn't have that.

It, it, but it does have a bunch of
other things that make it very beautiful.

And, and I, I do love
working in that medium.

Um, as an actor, I love the stage.

Yeah.

I will say that as a, you know, I, I
do love, I do love directing and film.

I love writing for film.

The possibilities are always
endless and there's so much really.

Fun stuff.

You're, you're, you're creating
puzzle pieces to then build a puzzle,

which I just think is pretty cool.

Yeah Yeah, they're very different mediums.

Rodney Lee Rogers: What's
next up for you if you're

Michael Smallwood: the Lehman Trilogy.

Yeah, I'm very excited I got to I
got to see the show on Broadway it

is shockingly beautiful And it is a
behemoth and I'm very very nervous

about it It's probably the most nervous.

I've been about a role in a long time.

Um, and I'm so excited,
still very excited about it.

It's, uh, it's about the
history of the Lehman family

and, um, Lehman Brothers Bank.

And it's kind of a history, it's kind
of a history of American capitalism,

as well as a saga of a family.

And it's Brilliant.

It's gonna be me, R.

Smith and David Mandel, and we're
gonna knock out this behemoth play

that I think everyone should see.

You're gonna be shocked
by how beautiful it is.

Rodney Lee Rogers: It's
a very exciting play.

I can't wait to see it.

Yeah.

I know we've already, one time last
at the theater, first time ever.

We had four different shows
kind of rehearsing at the

same time in the same theater.

So it's a really kind of
exciting time to be pure.

Yeah.

Well, we could definitely talk all day.

I'm sure we're going to, but
we've come to the end of our time.

Thanks so much for being here, Mike.

Michael Smallwood: Of course.

Yeah.

Anytime.

That's

Rodney Lee Rogers: our show for today.

Join us next week.

We'll do something a little bit different.

Longtime patron Steve Slifer on the show.

It's a really interesting insight into
life with Lehman Brothers in the 90s.

Be sure to check that out.

And be sure to like, favorite, whatever
you do these days on the podcast.

Thank you so much, and
we'll see you next week.