ANNA LIN and JASON CHAO

Jason Chao: The diversity of Asian
American experiences, Anna sharing

her experiences, me sharing mine, and
realizing that the Flecks are both shared

experience and diversity of experience.

Rodney Lee Rogers: And that's filmmaker
and actor Jason Chow, who along with

the extraordinary Anna Lin, were the
performers in The Chinese Lady by Loi Tzu.

Our first play of the season
was an incredible experience.

Two not only incredibly talented
and skilled performers, very

insightful into the process.

I hope you enjoy it.

Jason Chao: The

Anna Lin: story's beautiful.

It's absolutely beautiful.

Um, and I was really excited to get
the script and read it and I, I painted

it a very specific way, it, in my
head, not detailed, just like the tone

in my head as I was reading, right.

And so it was so beautiful
to bring in Jason.

And then see the life that he breathed
into Atom, which then, you know,

informed me more about my relationship
and my character as Atom Moi.

Um, and so it's like deliciously layered
and complex and like with each day that

we work on this, I think having the
three of us with our very like expansive

creative brains, Bishop to the audience,
uh, their relationship to the world, how.

generationally, her story still
rings true, um, is, has just

been a, an amazing process.

And honestly, what I love so much about
this story is, you know, not only is it

about the first Asian American or Chinese
American woman to be here, but also that

all of these, I guess, discriminations
and hurdles that she and Atom face still.

ring true today, just
packaged in a different way.

Yeah,

Jason Chao: for me, I think it's,
it's all those details that are so

fascinating when you first read a play,
it feels like you're seeing a river

that you're going to raft from like
3000 feet like in the air like you're

like, Oh, that looks like a really
interesting river like that'll be fun.

And then in the rehearsals, it's like,
Getting in the river with a boat, right?

Or with a raft and be like, Oh, wait,
I didn't realize there was a turn here.

I didn't realize that there
was these things going on.

I think that's been really the joy of it.

As Anna said, right, that we had this
perception, I think from a distance.

Oh, I know what the story is about.

And that's still there, but there's this
level of nuance, this level of detail

in almost every line that is really
fun to just to see the different ways

that we've been able to explore it.

You know, the joy of theater is no two
performances are the same, not from

the same actors and definitely not
from the same production and feeling

that diversity, you know, like where
Anna talks about right, like the

Asian American experience and seeing
how it has translated over the years.

But I think for me, it's also
been on addition to that.

The diversity of Asian American
experiences, Anna sharing her experiences,

me sharing mine, and realizing that
reflects our both shared experience

and diversity of experience, and
that's been really fun to discover.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Kind of exploration
in the beginning where You're

going from this wide, all these
options down to a singular place.

And you're using as artists, each of
the artists, it's the collaborative

part of theater, where you're really
bringing that in along with the voice

of the writer and finding these things.

It's it's to me, it's the, it's
the most exhilarating part.

And I think what the piece does, um,
what Lua D'Souza has done so well is

that the actors really are a character.

And I think for you guys,
bringing so much to it is just.

It really is, um, it's really
great because I get to feel like

I'm knowing you better, I get to
know the kind of situation better.

How do you feel, I mean I know there's
many different ways that you feel

like you're bringing yourself to it.

Is there one that's kind of unexpected,
and then is there one that is expected?

Anna Lin: I think for me, uh, the
expected one is, you know, kind of that,

like what Jason was saying, like, I
can see the river, okay, I'm that river

too, so my river matches, you know?

Um, like, on a very surface level.

The hardships that Afong Moy is going
through like in a different way, of

course, you know I'm like I get that or
I understand what you're going through

and then kind of the unexpected way
Through the rehearsals that we've been

doing is like this is the first time
I've ever been lost in a character

Who's also lost and it's really fun
and really heady But it's the first

time you know that You get lost in the
character easy, but like to get lost in

a character who's also lost, that's kind
of like the beauty of her story is she's

discovering so much every single scene
and I get to discover that with her.

Yeah.

Jason Chao: Uh, for me, the
expected part, um, well, I don't

want to, I don't want to like spoil
some of the twists of the story.

Um, you know, there's, there's
some personal things in, in Atom

where I knew that I related to it
because it was like being Asian

American is hard enough, right?

Like it's enough minority ness where
you already feel like you don't fit in.

And then.

To have other things on top of that,
which is like, well, you don't even fit

in within the Asian American community.

Um, that was something where I, I
expected it and feeling it has been

really, really, uh, emotional and,
and difficult, but also very freeing.

I think the thing that I didn't expect is.

The relationship that these two characters
have, right, is really this kind of push

and pull that everybody feels, which is
this push and pull between wanting to

hope in the world and wanting to hope
in other people and being pragmatic of

being like, no, other people are not good.

Um, and they're going to hurt you.

And it's interesting because most of my
life, I think I've been the hopeful one.

You know, I, I, most of my friends
will always be like, how are you

so optimistic and all these things.

And so to play the opposite character,
because Afong Loy is the hopeful

one to play the opposite character
and to really have to live in that.

Has been really unexpected because I
think I was always afraid of that, you

know, I was always afraid of the pessimism
and always afraid of the, the pragmatism

and the utilitarianism that I've seen
in a lot of Asian Americans around me.

And to be able to live in that
and be comfortable with it

has been really eye opening.

That's

Rodney Lee Rogers:
fascinating, the fear of it.

Can you expound on that a little bit?

What is the fear of that

Jason Chao: side?

I mean, I think the fear as Asian
Americans is that if we give in to this

system of racial segregation, Right.

That it's white versus black, yellow.

Doesn't fit anywhere, right?

Like, like if America went into another
civil war, that was white versus black.

I mean, who are we going to
fight for, or are we just going

to get squashed underneath the
weight, the tidal wave of it?

So to me, I think I've always
lived with this sort of.

You know fear of the just put your
head down and do the work mentality

that the model minority myth kind of
perpetuates because i'm You know You

study history and you're like the
people that put their heads down are

the ones that get squashed Right, like
they're the ones that get destroyed

when the other people start fighting.

Um and so I think i've I I think i've
had a certain amount of fear and maybe

judgmentalism towards that mentality
But now to have to inhabit a character

who is, is doing that and to not
judge him, because as an actor, you

know, you can't judge the character,
you can't like condemn the character,

to really try to understand, oh, how
does a person live that way, right?

How does a person live with themselves?

How does a person see themselves kindly?

Or maybe not so kindly, but to live
that life where it's like, yeah, this

is just the way things are and there's
nothing you can do to change it.

It's, it's scary because it means
that that is a way of life that is

available to everybody, to me, right?

And yet it can be so sad.

Yeah.

And I think it's different.

It's always different
to see a sadness, right?

From outside versus to live
the sadness from inside.

And I think I'm grateful because I feel
like it has helped me to expand that

empathy for those people, even in my life,
where I see those patterns happening.

Anna Lin: I don't know how you, I
mean, I'm assuming our raising was

similar, given cultural background.

But we don't do sad.

We don't do emotions.

Oh.

Jason Chao: Yeah, my, my way I
grew up was like, when you're

sad, go to the other room and come
back when you're ready to smile.

Anna Lin: Yes.

Yes.

And it's not even like in a nice kind way.

Like, go, go.

And when you're ready, go get your
stuff together and come back when you're

ready to function in this family again.

It's like, okay.

Sorry.

Jason Chao: You know, I'm not
Korean, but my wife is Korean

and I learned in Korean culture,
there's like a specific word called.

Right, which is like if your kid is crying
You would literally like hold your hand

out in front of them Like you're gonna
hit them and like tell them to stop right

like it was like stop crying, right?

And Yeah, it's but then to realize
what that does to a person Yeah,

right what having to always hide
your emotions and always always

put on a mask around other people.

It's devastating, right?

It really is, because
you can't kill a person.

Like, I mean, like the in, like, you,
you can't like squash who they are.

You can, you can kill their bodies.

You can control their bodies.

You can do everything you
can to oppress somebody.

But You know, I think right now in
our American culture, that's the thing

we're wrestling with is realizing, oh,
you can't force people into boxes and

expect them to actually become the box.

Rodney Lee Rogers: That's awesome.

So much of the play is about being seen.

And I going back just a
little bit to that, like.

It's a kind of a fascinating way,
the way to get by is not to be seen.

And yet, so it's in a way that the
inside is screaming to be seen.

I think with the play, that kind of
view is, you are both very much like

the character, and very much unlike
the character at the same time.

And in such a, it really is the
character, I mean, as I say that,

it's like, no, that, that's him.

Kind of in a nutshell.

And that's why it was so, so for
the, for the folks listening.

Um, Anna, we've known for years.

She's been working with the
theater, know lots about it.

But we, when we went to cast,
we could not find, um, A Tong,

we could not find that actor.

And we searched high and low, did a lot
of different things and we found Jason.

And there was something about
it was, I just, it was, it

was exactly what I was saying.

There was something, I had an idea
of who the character was, but then

I saw the website and I was like,
this is you, this is the guy.

And it had a lot to do with
what you had written on.

This was on your, um, your film site.

So you're also a filmmaker.

Um, you want to talk a little
bit about that, but kind of like

the way you look at life and.

You know, what's coming off on the, on, on

Jason Chao: the website.

Um, I mean, being seen right.

Like that's what I've understood now is,
um, the Asian American male experience.

Um, and then on a personal level, right?

Like I came out as queer a few
years ago, uh, like two years ago.

Um, and it's been a journey, uh, on that.

Yay.

Um, but the Asian American
male experience is very.

Interesting.

I think in American cultural
landscape, because it really is this

experience of being invisible, right?

Like Asian American women, from my
understanding, right, have this problem

of always being exoticized and always
being objectified and always being

seen as, you know, sexualized, but
being an Asian American man growing up.

In Texas, which I did, was like, Oh,
you're not relevant at all, right?

Like you're not seen that way.

Right.

And, um, I think that that's
really powerful in the overall

American experience because
everybody does feel that, right.

Everybody feels that at certain
points in their lives where

it's like, how come nobody.

Sees me how come nobody looks at me?

Um and trying to Find stories where
that emotion and that feeling is

really Portrayed the asian american
male experience is just primed for it

Right, like it's primed like like we
kind of are able to to represent that

because it happens to us so frequently
Um, and I think for me in my filmmaking

artwork It is a lot of trying to
understand, Oh, what does that mean?

What does that mean to be human?

Cause that's again, the thing where,
well, if, if everybody's picking sides

around race, then where do we go?

And then even for me coming out,
it was like, well, America is

also divided around sexuality.

Where do I go?

Right.

And then, you know, you
talk about gender too.

And at the end of the day, for me,
I think the big thing that I believe

in and am pushing for and trying
to create art that expresses is

this idea that the us is everyone.

That when we divide people, whatever
it is, it doesn't matter if it's

gender or race or money, right?

When it, when we are in this
mentality of it's an us versus them,

then that's where we break down.

And my experience is in at least
the major ways that America

divides people, I'm left out.

Like I'm not even on a
side, I'm just left out.

And so to me, then that has, I've
tried to pour that into the hope that.

You know, can we have a mentality, a
philosophy, a culture where the us is

everyone, where we don't think about it
as us versus them, where we apply the

same, you know, the way that I judge
or the way that I want to rule other

people and tell them what to do, that I'm
going to take those same rubrics and do

it to myself because it's just one us.

And I really liked that in
the Chinese lady, right?

Like that, that's.

That's part of the struggle because
it's not easy like that sounds good

and I realize it sounds great I
mean, I might tell that to people

they're like, yeah, that's wonderful.

But the practicality of actually Living
that out is so so hard and I love

that this play shows how hard that is

Rodney Lee Rogers: So what's so
interesting about being an artist because

it's like you say it's like you get on
a conversation Like this and it comes

out and it sounds so great But then
it's like, and we think, well, they've

got it together, but you still have to
turn around and go live it every day.

And I think that's the kind
of the, the, the job of an

artist is go live it every day.

Fascinating.

Um, Anna, comedy.

What does comedy mean to you?

Comedy is a

Anna Lin: big part of your life.

Yes.

Comedy is a big part of my life.

Um, well, growing up, you know, kind
of to piggyback off Jason a little

bit, Asian American experience, uh, or.

is I'm the youngest daughter.

So be quiet, be super quiet.

There are so many older people over you.

Um, and then you're a girl, so it's
not ladylike to be expressive, to be

funny, um, and to have an opinion.

And so.

Yeah, that's kind of how I was raised
It's so funny because so many people

are like, oh my gosh, you probably
were the cutest little girl and i'm

like, yes however Nothing like this
I was really quiet really obedient.

Uh very much whatever you needed
me to do is what I did and then

Um sometime, you know, I kind of
realized like it like clicked for

me like what's the point right?

Because kind of like the chinese lady
um This is who we need you to be Yeah,

we want you to be chinese, but we also
need you to point out What is and not

to like give too much of the play away
But what makes you so exotic compared

to what americans see every day?

And so she's you know, she's
asked to be a certain thing.

She can't even be her true authentic
self Ironically in a room where

she's supposed to be her true.

I thought authentic self.

She needs to be what the uh, the
americans who have bought her need to

be and so But what's the point, right?

So, I kind of had that same revelation
for myself, um, and decided, I'm

like, well, I feel like it's, I don't
know, can I curse on this thing?

Rodney Lee Rogers: I think so.

Anna Lin: Damned if you do, and damned
if you don't, so I'm gonna damn if I do.

Um, and so, you know, in my late teens
through my early twenties and even now, I

kind of realized like, I'm just going to
do what I want because what's the point?

And then at some point in time, I
just went through like this whole,

like, what am I doing with my life?

And I actually worked in hospice
care for a few years and my sweet

patients who were literally like on.

Death's door with just a plethora
of knowledge looked at me and like

in a loving way like what are you?

What are you doing?

Is this what you want
to do with your life?

We feel like you're meant to be
on stage, you know and I'm like I

would love to do that but it's just
not an option because And I'm sure

Jason knows this you either become a
doctor an accountant or an engineer.

That's it Those are your options
theater is not is not a thing and then

so eventually I You know started doing
improv and it was so freeing because they

literally teach you to say whatever You
want and do whatever you want, you know

with some Um, and your, your people will
support you and that was the most freeing

and loving experience I've ever had.

So then on the flip side, like
as a teacher, that's exactly how

I teach because I remember what
it's like to live life stifled.

What do you want me to say?

I'll say it.

What's funny?

I'll, I'll say it like that, you know?

And then so to be able to show people,
Mike, the funny is inside you, you know,

just do whatever it is that you think.

And then we'll make it work.

Um, and so like one of my favorite classes
I had recently, like the kid was, or he's

not a kid, he's an adult, was so nervous.

And it was like a level one improv, right?

I'm like, no, what do you want to do?

He's like, I don't know.

And that's the thing.

Usually when you say, I don't know.

You do know, you're just scared to do it.

We're taught to U turn
from our feelings, right?

Ooh, I don't want to feel that.

So I'm like, no, what do you want to do?

What do you want to do?

And I'll, and I'll say it, and then
he's like, I, I, uh, the person had

vomited out of Trader Joe's, right?

And he's like, well, I want
to I want to lick the vomit.

I'm like, do it, you know?

And he did like, I mean,
fake, obviously, right?

But it was, it was organic.

Everyone started laughing.

And I'm like, look at that.

Look at the world you just built.

And like, what does that tell you?

You're the type of person to
lick up vomit at Trader Joe's.

What else would you do?

You know?

And we just had so much fun with it.

Um, and that's something that I learned
and I wish I knew that growing up.

So that's kind of what I try
to impart on people in my life.

Rodney Lee Rogers: How do you feel
that's folding back into like the

work we're doing with the character?

Anna Lin: You know what?

I'm gonna, I'm gonna kudos you, Rodney.

Because obviously, you know, I still have
some of those tendencies from when I was

a kid because I'm still most of my life.

And, um, the thing that you said to
me last week that I just say to myself

all day now, like as I'm driving
and stuff is, what would Anna do?

Jason Chao: That's awesome.

Rodney Lee Rogers: Yeah, because

Anna Lin: sometimes I'm like, Oh,
I think this is what she would do.

And like, Oh, I've seen other Chinese
ladies and this is how they would act.

They're very demure and,
and things like that.

But then you said to me like,
well, what would Anna do?

And I'm just like, well,
this is what Anna would do.

And it's just been so much
more fun with the process.

And like, it's just, again, making
that character just more complex.

And then I think having that upbringing
of both being kind of what a stereotype

culturally we're supposed to be.

And then that freeing moment is.

It's been great to kind of pull
together to build this character and

build a story and build, you know, my
relationship with Jason as a thong.

Rodney Lee Rogers: It so is, I think it's,
the script is brilliant in so many ways.

I think how much we get to work
with and how to move around it.

But the addition of the performer
in it, I just think is magical.

And like, especially, you know,
I'm so happy to have you guys.

Because you're both amazing
artists in your own right.

Actor Anna Lin and filmmaker
and actor Jason Chow.

Be sure to subscribe if you're joining the
podcast and we'll be back again next week.

Until then, keep

Jason Chao: it pure.