PATRICIA WILLIAMS DOCKERY with JOY VANDERVORT-COBB
Patricia Williams Dockery:
Making sure that, um, Southern
blacks and, and, you know, all
Americans have the right to vote.
I mean, those are two, two,
those are like the bedrocks of,
you know, um, of our democracy.
I think if you can't get an education
and you can't vote, then whoa.
Right.
Rodney Lee Rogers: And that was Patricia
Williams Dockery, writer of Septima.
Septima enjoyed a sold
out run last spring.
And a real testament when a bunch
of great artists come together.
Sharon Gracie was the director of
that, and just an amazing piece that
celebrates the dynamic life of Septima P.
Clark, civil rights leader.
That show will be touring all throughout
February, throughout South Carolina, and
then will culminate in a presentation
of five performances in Charleston
at the Cannon Street Art Center.
That will run February
28th through March 2nd.
So be sure to check it out.
You've got one last week
to see the Lehman trilogy.
Be sure to check it out
before it's gone forever.
Enjoy the conversation.
Joining me on it is Joy Vandervoort Cobb,
an amazing writer, director, activist,
and so lucky she is also a core member.
Enjoy the conversation.
I certainly wanna talk a lot
about the play, but let's start
about like where you grew up.
Like let's talk a little bit
about, you know, how you came to
writing and where you came from.
Patricia Williams Dockery: Sure.
So, um, I was born and raised
on the south side of Chicago.
Um, the youngest.
By about 13 years.
So grew up around what we would say
were old people, old folks back then.
But now, um, I think that a lot of
people are having children later.
And so I would not consider them being
old parents, but because I was around
old folks so much, you know, I just, I
talked early, read early, um, was the
center of my parents and their friends,
you know, worlds and my, my siblings.
Um, and so.
Language was, you know, just important and
a big part of my life and, uh, my parents
haven't been, you know, part of the great
migration, um, former sharecroppers,
education was really important, you know,
to them and so they put me in private
schools and private schools and so all
of my teachers, like, Um, the teachers
that Septima Clark encountered, um, at
Avery were super invested in, uh, me
being, you know, whatever I wanted to be.
Um, and so that's kind of, you
know, how I got to be, having
the gift of gab, if you will.
And maybe having the ear for dialogue.
I think I have the ear for dialogue.
Oh,
Rodney Lee Rogers: absolutely.
Yeah.
And it's such a, that's such
an interesting, it's such an
important theme in the work.
And like, not knowing that yet, to know
how, how much education plays a part.
When you started to get into the
play, and into that part, how much,
relating is not necessarily a word,
but how did that find your way into the
Patricia Williams Dockery: piece?
Yeah, well, um, there's one, there's
one, um, um, line that the Septima
and the children say in, uh, the play,
which is that, um, education plus
liberation equals self determination.
And, And, um, having had, uh,
teachers, black teachers at St.
Sabina, which is a small, um,
Catholic school on the South side,
most of my teachers were either
white older nuns or young black
teachers who had gone to HBCUs.
And so they were very much
about black power and about,
you know, African centeredness.
And so they were always.
You know, telling us that, you know, read
well and, you know, get tell stories,
you could be whatever you want to be
and, you know, go after your dreams.
So, um, that was really important that
that's been a part of my story and then
having read the classic slave narratives.
I, you know.
Know that, um, formerly enslaved people
really wanted to learn to read and write
so that they could, of course, forge
their manumission papers, but also so
that they could tell their own stories.
And I saw that in, you know, what
Septima's dad, Peter Poinsett, uh, Porche
Poinsett wanted for his kids, even though
he never learned to read and write.
And certainly what her mother wanted was
for her children to be educated so that
they could be self determined so that,
so, um, to, to bring your questions,
to bring my answer around, um, I saw
that piece, I saw part of what, um, I
had been reared to believe and what my
teachers and my, my mother for sure,
you know, um, You know, poured into me
was that the more education you get,
um, you know, the sky was the limit.
Right.
And so I, that resonated with me,
the fact that she was such a dynamic
educator, you know, like when you think
about the educators who inspired you
growing up, they're the ones who, you
know, either they, they, you know, they
told you a great story or they, you
know, they touch you in a certain way.
Um, and.
The way that Septima taught and the what
she wanted to impart to her students
and the fact that she knew that they
had agency in the learning process, um,
all of, you know, that really resonated
with me and, uh, I try to impart that
to my students and convey that, you
know, education is a two way street.
It's not just me telling them, but
there's transference of knowledge
between, you know, student to teacher.
Student to student and of course,
you know teacher to student.
So yeah,
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: I used to tell
my students all the time I said this
is a circular learning place, right?
It's I'm gonna pour in you're gonna pour
and we're gonna just keep doing that
together Patricia for those listening who
don't know you you started with South Side
of Chicago and the way you were raised
Um, while you were in Catholic school,
but there's more that needs to be said.
So would you say it?
Patricia Williams Dockery: Sure.
So, um, so I, um, I did go to, um,
I got my undergraduate degree at
Fisk University and of course that's
where Septima was supposed to go.
So we have that kindred spirit.
But 19 is 19.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, and then I went to Dartmouth
College for my master's of arts and
liberal studies and it was really
there that I, about getting a PhD.
Um, let me, let me just back up.
When I was at Fisk, I got what my parent,
my mom was pouring into me as well
because, you know, they never talked to
me about getting a job, you know, um,
they just said, do whatever you like.
What, what are you interested in?
You, you could do that.
You could do that.
And so, um, now of course you have
to, I have a plan for subsistence.
I'm an, you know, I'm an anthropologist.
You have to be able to take care of
yourself, but ultimately it wasn't, they
weren't teaching us to be, go out and have
that Henry Ford model of, you know, uh,
Um, you know, working eight hours a day.
So, so it was there that I really got
inspired to just really follow my passion.
And at Dartmouth, I had
that interdisciplinary, um,
you know, um, experience.
And by the time I left there,
I figured I would get a PhD
in, um, I didn't know what.
So, uh, I took some time off and then
got my PhD in cultural anthropology
from University of Illinois at Chicago.
So, um.
Have been a museum's person, uh, at
the Field Museum, the Museum of Science
and Industry, taught and got tenure
in, you know, two year college, College
of Charleston, and got my, I really
feel like I cut my teeth in becoming
who I am at the Avery Research Center.
For African American history and
culture at the College of Charleston.
If you're donating people,
donate to both Pure Theater and
also the Avery Research Center.
Yes, please.
Um, so yeah, it was there that I
really, I feel like, you know, I
kind of came into my own as a, as a,
I don't even know what I am because
I'm not even doing that work anymore.
I'm at, um, I'm a, you know,
a sort of a high level.
administrator at Morgan State
University in academic affairs.
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: All right.
So I'm going to ask you about septum,
uh, because that's why you're sitting
here and I'm so glad you're home.
Um, I want to know, and
this may be difficult.
What is it you've learned
through the process.
Of writing and then seeing it mounted.
Being a part of the audiences.
Hearing the questions from the audience.
What is the thing that
you'll walk away with?
for your next project.
Patricia Williams Dockery: Well,
well, first of all, I have to say
that Sharon, um, Gracie is amazing
because when I was writing it, you
know, in my mind, I'm like, Oh,
I've read so much, so many plays.
I've been to, you know, I went to see
Dreamgirls when I was in high school.
Oh, I got this.
I got this.
And My son is an actor.
I know how to I got this.
And so, of course That is not the case.
Um, I mean, it was a great process
to like, get all the ideas on paper,
get the copious and, um, instructive.
And I would say gentle, um, uh, feedback
that, uh, both joy and Sharon gave me.
Um, but what I really realized is that
there has to be this, um, Close working
relationship with the director, um,
to really, for me, as someone who is a
novice to this, to understand, um, what,
what the different techniques look like
when they're written, of course, in my
mind, you know, I'm putting stuff in
parenthetic, parenthetical, um, notes,
like, um, But you know techniques that
Sharon and you guys know cuz y'all
are theater folks And then there were
places where I thought okay I know that
something was gonna say that this this
way in my mind right and then when they
didn't in the like there In tech week.
I was like, oh wow,
that's not how I saw it.
But then I was like, oh my god
This is how she should say it.
And so, um, I've, I've
just learned a whole bunch.
Um, I tell my students, my writing
students that, you know, the,
the best writers are writers
who revise, revise, revise.
And they're like, yeah, whatever.
We don't want to revise anymore.
And it is hard.
Revisions are hard because you
think, oh my God, this is it.
I gave birth to it.
Ta da.
Don't you love it?
And it's like, I love parts of it.
Now you need to rework that.
So you, um, you meaning me, um, I try
to be self reflective in terms of not
thinking I know everything all the time.
So I'm always open to, um, criticism.
You know, it might sting a little bit,
but ultimately, you know, I'm a growth
mindset person, so I took all of, um.
You know, the feedback, and I think
I remember telling you, Oh, joy.
Um, I think this needs to go back.
And joy was like, I'm staying out of it.
You better call the
director, call the director.
And so then I did, and we
just had a great conversation.
And she said, well, what about this?
And I said this, and then
we did this and then it.
Came together and then, um, I sent, sent
you a text, remember, I was like, Joy, I
spoke my truth and, but ultimately, and
Shira was so great and it was important
for me to speak my truth and she heard
me and this is the best experience and
for me, it has been the best experience.
Even when I may have been stung a
little bit, it was still, I would rather
have been stung by Sharon and this
experience than to not have had that
experience, this experience at all.
So I learned a lot.
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: Oh, that's good.
That's good.
Uh, yeah, we were talking about this
once before you and I did an interview
after one of the shows last week.
And, um, the big difference, you know, as
a writer, You spend so much time alone.
And in the theater, it's so collaborative.
Everybody's in it.
The design team is in it.
Oh, this won't work.
This won't work.
What was she thinking in terms of this?
It's like, ah, yeah, I
didn't even think about that.
That it's so different to, um, have
your words moved around or taken out.
You know, and I'm the queen of cut.
I'm like, Sharon, this needs
to be cut, cut, cut, cut, cut.
Yeah.
And she's like, well, I mean,
some of it's got to stay.
Patricia Williams Dockery: Right, right.
And see, I didn't even know that
that was part of the process.
And then Sharon said, you know, if we
had longer time, we would have, you know,
we would have had more readings and we
would have been going back and forth.
But because we just did not have the time.
Right.
Um, so this is like not the
typical way it would go.
So I feel like I did okay
under those circumstances.
Rodney Lee Rogers: And a lot of it
is just knowing what's going to work.
And until you get it up there,
there are things that, I think
stand up comics do this the most.
They just throw it out
there, see if it works.
And I think finding out what works
and doesn't work, you don't find
that out until you get on stage.
And I think as a writer, it's like
you're trying to create it in space.
But you still have to see it and and
that's the real gift of a good writer
like a playwright that can then be
part Of the process and they go.
Oh, they didn't say it this
way, but that's better.
Oh, they didn't say it this way How
about say it that way, you know,
which is the other way to kind of
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: go, right?
And that was the the big miss I think
in this experience was not being able
to Because everybody's lives are so
chaotic not being able to have you here
as long like before tech right so that
you could have been rewriting pages
or saying you know what, I, I see, and
sometimes Rodney with what you said, we
don't know what's going to work until.
Uh, an audience is there, what
lands, what doesn't land so that the
process continues during previews.
We don't have the luxury of, you know,
two week, three week previews like
they do in New York, um, oftentimes.
Uh, but, um, we're still
able to garner from response.
From, you know, the changing mood of
the audience, what works, what, what
might we clean up, what might we change.
So, in that vein.
I'm thinking that Septima goes on,
Septima continues a life, and in
that continuation, do you and Sharon
see possibility of changes, are you
leaving, is it, is now this the piece?
No, we
Patricia Williams Dockery: talked about
that a little bit the other day about,
um, some of the parts that were taken
out that we think need to go back in
and then there are areas that we need
to tighten up, but no, it definitely
needs, um, a little bit more love.
And um, so Sharon and I will figure
out how we can, how we can, you
know, carve out time to do that.
But I think that.
So when, when you do
that, then what happens?
So like if, once we get it to
where we want it, then what,
do you, do you mount it again?
Oh, you bound it again at some other time.
Rodney Lee Rogers: There are many
different ways you go about it.
I mean, there's, there's then the
process, but that would be the hope.
It's almost like another draft.
Like you would then go
to the next performance.
You would then move it on.
They do it a lot with like a Broadway
show that is slated for Broadway.
They know it's going to Broadway.
They'll take it to San Francisco.
They'll play it, they'll work it.
So, and I think that probably the hardest
thing for any artist is when is it done?
When, when, especially a story like
this, that A, should be better known,
and two, that it's just so broad and
there's so many ways to enter it.
Um, I mean, I think that's the
hardest part is staying in the
process, is staying in the fun
part of that process of Discovery.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I would think you
would have another production, uh, maybe
another tour, take it someplace else.
Yeah.
Um,
Patricia Williams Dockery: yeah.
Yes.
From your lips to God's ears.
Rodney Lee Rogers: Touring
sounds really, really great.
Oh, I think it's, yeah, it's a
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: powerful piece.
I mean, it's been wonderful to watch
the response, hear the response.
What they've latched on to, what has
moved them the most, and not like in
an interview setting, but hearing them
in the lobby of, did you know that?
Oh my God, I had no idea.
Rodney Lee Rogers: You know?
It's been a lot of that.
A lot of that.
And then even the kids today.
So we had, we had about 60 kids
in the theater today watching it.
Students, we'll call them
students, and same tomorrow.
It's like, we're talking about,
you kind of feel them zero in on,
this is something, I'm not going to
say take for granted, but this is,
a lot of school age kids, mine in
particular as well, Why am I in school?
Why do I have to do this?
The fact that people died for this,
people pushed for this, that that
happened, and I think, I felt that you
feel that in the audience, especially
when they were talking about her life.
Like they kind of
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: zeroed in on it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I heard that, um, one of
the, uh, college of Charleston
had a talk back night with you.
And, um, uh, I heard from one of the
kids that their friend that was with
them is also in the, the teaching
program, the education department.
And wept, wept through this story
that they just kept crying, right?
And I, I mean, I think that means
it's a little bit effective.
Yeah.
Now you can only see it through streaming.
Rodney Lee Rogers: Well, and the
teachers, I think the teachers,
because this is like, you think
about it, all of us get our stories.
This is a story for teachers.
Yeah.
And so as the teachers
see it, I think it's like.
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: Yeah, I think it's
very cool that we are getting teachers in.
Um, I mean, I'd like them to come to
all of the shows, but certainly a piece
like Septima, to watch and hear and
learn about this whole Charleston South
Carolina and its education system,
but also what she went through and
how she went through it to become this
incredibly powerful, present woman
who her activism was education and
Patricia Williams Dockery: it
took her 14 years to get her.
Her college degree, you know, that she
was educating, you know, young people,
then adult learners, um, you know, had to
sort of sacrifice rearing her, her son.
She had to sacrifice rearing her
son to, um, to do that and, but that
she, you know, kept pushing little
by little and, um, you know, got her.
Bachelor's degree and then ultimately
a master's degree, but that it meant
that much that it meant so much to her.
So education, but then also
making sure that, um, Southern
blacks and, and, you know, all
Americans have the right to vote.
I mean, those are two, two,
those are like the bedrocks.
Of, you know, um, of our democracy,
I think if you can't get an education
and you can't vote, then whoa, right?
Yeah.
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, there's just, there's so much
depth and so much personality to the
piece in terms of all the information that
we're getting, um, that you just, you're
kind of, cause we get so cynical, right.
But you're kind of astounded, you know,
that this one person who just would not
give up and how she brought it along.
And I love, as a teacher, or
as a former teacher, what I
love, I loved her interaction.
Once
Rodney Lee Rogers: teacher.
I was about to say, are you ever a
former, you're never a former teacher.
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: As formally paid
Patricia Williams Dockery: as a teacher.
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: Um, recognizing the
beauty of meeting students where they are.
And bringing them to where you
need them to be to maximize the
experience for everybody in the room.
And she does that in such
a spectacularly loving way.
Yes.
You know, walking around James and John's
Patricia Williams Dockery: Island.
Getting to know the people.
Getting to know the people.
Making up stories based upon, you know,
the, the, the farm animals and the,
you know, uh, the, well, the other.
Animals that you see on John's
Island and the flowers and
having them to make up stories.
Yeah, absolutely and
making it relevant to them.
Making it relevant
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: to them, right?
Them finding a way to
access their own education.
And, um, and in so doing teaching
them that they were valuable.
Patricia Williams Dockery: Absolutely,
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: absolutely.
That regardless of how society
was treating or looking at you.
You come with an inherent value, and I
think if that's missing in the classroom,
that's missing in the classroom.
That's missing in the classroom.
She does such a, uh, a
gorgeous job of that.
Yeah.
And hearing about, you know, The
housing that she had to live in.
Yes, Lord.
Oh, please.
Well,
Patricia Williams Dockery: it's
not for the faint of heart.
We couldn't have done it, right?
Somebody had mentioned, um,
at the talkback, or one of
the talkbacks, that, um, Dr.
Millicent Brown's father, whose name I'm
like, I'm, I'm, I'm missing right now,
but he had been one of the, uh, had been
the president of the NAACP, I think the,
the, the state level and Charleston and
that, um, he had said at some point that.
You know, he had some regrets about their
fight around, you know, to integrate the
schools and then someone said, well, what
do you think that Septima Clark would say?
And so I, I, I definitely would not think
that she would think that integration
was a bad idea, but I think that she
would say that that she would probably
feel some sort of ennui and sadness that
You know that there was such a fight
around making sure that, you know, black
Children and black adults got a good
education and also the right to vote.
And now there's such an attack.
On both of those, you know, how
American education has continued to
go down in some ways and teachers
are not supported and then of course,
you know, the far right's attack on,
you know, voting on voting rights.
So I think education and education.
So yeah, I think she would
feel sadness around that.
Like we do.
Well,
Rodney Lee Rogers: yeah.
And the lack of love, I think, in all
of it, because it's like she does,
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: they bring that up.
Yeah.
In the play.
Yeah.
You have them talking about their
activism was fueled by love, right?
And if you didn't have love, you really
can't be an activist, right, right, right.
There's, uh, if love is not driving
you, the work is way too hard.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And you exhaust way too easily.
Absolutely.
And I mean, I think in many ways to
having that kind of love, I like to
think of myself, um, As an artivist,
having that kind of love is exhausting.
Oh, an artivist,
Patricia Williams Dockery: I like that.
Okay!
I might have to borrow that.
You heard it here first.
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: Artivist.
My artivism, uh, uh, is There is a,
if there is not love guiding it, the
exhaustion comes much too early, and
then you give up, and then you give
up, and even those who love like
Septima, and we have Rosa Parks, and
Miles Horton, how tiring that got to
be, but they never stopped moving it
forward because they kept their eye on
Patricia Williams Dockery: the prize.
Absolutely, they certainly did for sure.
Eyes on the prize.
Rodney Lee Rogers: I think that's
a very part of the theme as well of
the conversation we're having too, is
the difference between education as
something that you put into somebody
versus something that you draw out.
Right.
And I think that, you know, it's so
inherent in the work, and it's so inherent
in her life, that she was Very interested
in bringing out, um, fascinating, right?
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: And honing, right?
I'm just not going to bring it out.
That's true.
That's not the, it doesn't end here, but
I can match what I have, my skillset to
teach with what you have as a human being,
your own agency to both interact, absorb.
And also teach, but you have to be
available for the teaching on both ends.
Absolutely.
You know, and when you're teaching to
a test, it makes it much more, more
difficult, but I think still possible.
I think, um, still possible.
It's just, it's, it's just hard.
But I love teachers.
I love you all.
Well, not all of you.
There's one teacher.
No, I'm kidding.
Rodney Lee Rogers: There are a few.
That don't bring the love.
They brought
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: the tests.
Makes you love
Patricia Williams Dockery: harder.
Nevertheless, we persist.
That's right.
We
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: persist indeed.
Indeed.
Rodney Lee Rogers: Well, beyond moving
forward with, um, with the play,
is there anything else that's next?
And it doesn't have to be playwriting.
I mean, what do you,
what's the next big project
Patricia Williams Dockery: for you?
Well, I have a book that will
hit the shelves in the fall.
It's um, Slavery and the
African American Story.
And the cover is gorgeous.
Yes.
It's a middle school book.
Um, it's coming out through
Penguin subsidiary, subsidiary
Knopf Books for Young Readers.
Um, and I'm super excited.
I wrote it during the pandemic and
it is, um, hopefully there will be
a, a, a second part to it because it.
It goes from 1619 to 1850, um, a little
bit before 1619 actually, um, and, um,
so yeah, so hopefully we will have the
part two, but it's, I think that it is a
lovely, um, honest, a lot of, a lot of.
Facts and information that we
didn't get as, you know, graduate
students, you know, studying African
American history and culture.
Um, there's etymology, you know, um,
I had, I had a lot of fun with it.
So, um, it goes from there on, and then
there's a, you know, a flash forward.
And, um, you know, there, it ends with.
Some genetics and, um, my, uh, referenced
the work of my first PhD student, her work
on, um, genetics and the Gullah people.
And so it's very exciting.
That sounds fascinating.
Wait, is it a novel?
No, no, no.
It's, it's going to be a middle school,
um, like book, but yeah, primer.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
And it's a part of the
race to the truth series.
Joy Vandervort-Cobb: Yes.
Oh, nice.
Nice.
Very nice.
Well, definitely when it comes
Rodney Lee Rogers: out, we
may be able to have you back.
We can talk about that as well.
Thank you.
Absolutely.
Well, thank you so much
for being with us today.
Thank you for having me.
It's been a treat having you
around and learning so much and
being a part of the process.
We just
Patricia Williams Dockery: need to
get me to be a fellow here and then
I can come back, me and my husband.
Yes.
Thank you, Rodney.
Thank you, Joy.
Yeah, I love you.
Rodney Lee Rogers: Patricia
Williams Dockery and my co host
there, Joy Vandervoort Cobb.
Thanks so much for joining us this week.
And join us again next week.
Be sure to like, subscribe,
or whatever you do these days.
And until next time, keep it
pure.